Tithing
Hey, I'm on an advisory board for a company that is starting up from among a group of Christian men who want to do business and serve the Lord with their profession. It has been really fun to have to figure out what that actually means on a substantive level.
So we have been talking about tithing and the difference between what the principle of tithing is to an individual and family, versus a corporate entity like a business.
John and E, have you had to deal with issues of business giving as Christians? How have you approached it? Do you call it tithing/ giving with similar principles/ nothing to do with each other at all? Do you guys do charity less predictably from a percentage of after expenses profit, or do you budget giving more predictably from a flat expense of total revenue? What is your business' relation with Asia's Hope? Is it formal or informal? Do you consider it taxable write-offs or tax-exempt expenses? What difference have you found between the two?
posted by Anonymous at 4:08 PM
19 Comments:
grrrrr...christian clients...grrrrrrrrrr
Uh, it's Christian clients.
But there's so much here, it's more suited to dialogue than blogging. I'd be happy to iChat or phoneChat with you.
Erik has my contact info.
I just had to comment on this. I don't know any of you and just happened to get to this blog via Megan C. I am a CPA and whenever I hear we have a "christian" client I want to tell them to go somewhere else. It seems they always are the ones that don't pay or constantly complain about fees and in general leave a bad taste in the mouth. The firm owner is not a believer and I try to be a good christian example, but all it takes is some of these "christian" clients to screw everything up. I am so leery of hiring a business to do work for me if they are "selling" their christianity because it seems to backfire more often then not. On the other hand we do have christian clients, but I only know that because of their attitudes, business practices, and charitable donations made and not because they are out there making a statement. Sorry about the ranting. This is something that really concerns me about christians in business. We don't need to be out there telling people that we are christians, we need to be living it out. They should be able to notice we are different by our actions.
Duane Yoder
Dueane Yoder reads blogs- - - how cool is that- Your wife was the best wedding cooedinator at VCC period!
You should visit us all at emlement sometime!
What Duane said.
Man, that's such a much better summary than any I could have come up with about why "christian" businesses are suspect 99% of the time in my book.
Duane, thanks for the comment and feel free to continue!
Thanks Jeff and Erik. Jeff my wife thanks you too for the compliment. She really enjoyed doing the wedding thing at VCC, but after we adopted the kiddos it was too much. I am usually just a "lurker" on the blog, but if something gets me riled up I will probably respond. I am not sure how much I can offer being an ex-mennonite, old, stodgy, conservative accountant. I tend to see things in black and white with not as much insight into the gray areas that most of the bloggers have.
Duane Yoder
Brad--
I think that there a a number of factors that contribute to my aversion to working with people who would consider themselves 'Christian Businessmen.'
1) The Amway Effect
I've met many people who have never had to work really hard or possess any real talent for their given profession. Their built-in network provides them all the security they need.
Most people who don't belong to a country club or church (sometimes they're basically the same thing, right?) don't have more than a few 'natural' contacts that they'd exploit when starting a business or cultivating a client list.
Most people have to work really hard or be really good at their jobs to create a network of potential customers with personal loyalty.
So, many people who AREN'T good, or smart, or talented, or hard working see the church, or the country club or the 'networking' societies as a goldmine: A group of people who are favorably disposed to buy your product or service -- just because you're a member of their group.
And for 'Christians' with this mindset, the gold mine runs even deeper: These people are supposed to automatically give me their TRUST, something people would normally have to work really hard to earn -- just because I'm a Christian.
2) The Incest Effect
I can't tell anyone that Uncle Fred raped me. It would make family gatherings a little awkward, and might lower our family's esteem in the eyes of outsiders. 'Nuff said.
3) The Faith Card
I actually had a potential client who had (metaphorically, of course) one hand on my wallet and the other in the front of my pants say to me (as the metaphorical sound of his belt buckle hitting the floor behind me resonated in my ears), "John, I'm a little disappointed in you. I don't think we can really do business together, unless you're willing to be a little less legalistic -- I was hoping we could have more of a 'New Testament' type of relationship."
"Oh," said I, "You mean one without a contract that requires you to pay me if I do the work you're asking for?"
"Well," said he, "It's not like I'm trying to (zzzzzzzzziiipppp) screw you or anything. I just thought that, since we're 'brothers' and all, we could build our relationship on trust, rather than on suspicion."
:/
4) The CDI
As in, the Christian Debt Index. At one time, my CDI was up to $35,000. At that time, I was billing an average of $19,000 per month. So 35k hurt like a bizotch. As a matter of fact, I could have gone out of business. Instead, I went into personal credit card debt, because I believe the Bible teaches that I'm not permitted to sue another Christian. I'll beg and plead, but I won't sue.
One of the clients who owed me a large sum of money once said, "John, I thought we were friends here, when did it all become about money?"
I tried that with my mortgage lender once. Didn't work.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there aren't Christians who are great at what they do, and are completely honest, living out their faith in the marketplace.
I just think that there are many posing as 'good Christians' because it's the most profitable position for them to take. I also think that many Christians with good intentions are lured into greed and dishonesty because that's the example they see in the church and in the Christian Blue Pages (because, of course, you should only buy milk from a Christian cow).
My general rule of thumb:
w = the number of Christian plaques, tzotchkes, doodads displayed on person's premises, brochures, cards or website (includes inspirational posters, fishes, fishes eating other fishes, and in some cases American flags)
x = the number of times a person mentions they're a Christian or Christian business in the context of trying to get your money
y = the number of positive comments I've received about said company by non-Christian business associates
z = the number of feet I'd trust the said Christian businessman farther than I could pick up his docker-covered ass and chuck him
If w+x > y, then subtract (w+x) from y to calculate z.
(caveat: I suck at math. So if the above equation makes no sense, don't blame me. Blame my Christian school education.)
:-)
LMAO (Laugh my ass off) John, I couldn't have said it any better. I agree with your points exactly. I really like your math equation.
BTW - if you ever need a good chrisitan CPA my number is .... Just kidding :)
Duane Yoder
Brad,
I'm not sure I can imagine writing a special pamphlet to hand out to Christian businessmen. I'd rather just ask them to abide by the same contracts and standards I use with everyone else.
"With such a man do not even eat." That's the position I take when it comes to someone who has demonstrated himself to be greedy or idolotrous. I guess I'd rather spend my time demonstrating my faith by working with non-believers anyway. Which puts me at odds with the scores of people who believe that we should patronize Christian businesses to help 'feed the flock.'
As far as your original post 'serving the Lord with (our) profession' is something we take very seriously. Part of that is demonstrated by our work ethic. We work hard, and we do good work. We charge a fair price. We pay our bills. But we also don't live for work. Most of the time, we leave by five to spend time with our families.
As an employer, I rarely (if ever) turn someone down when they request time off or a raise. I try to not pull rank. I work hard to not view my position as 'boss' as an excuse to treat people like they're in any way beneath me.
We also donate to ministries personally and as a company with cash and services rendered. I donate our space to people who want to use it. I purchase extra drinks and comfy furniture so everyone -- my clients, their family, my friends, my pastor -- enjoys spending time. I take time when people stop in to make them feel welcome and to talk about life.
Most importantly (I think), I view my business, my skills, my time and my money as belonging to God. I don't live a lavish lifestyle, at least by American standards. I try to not cultivate an insatiable desire for more stuff. I am basically content with my current level of success and prosperity.
All of these things are more important than marketing myself based on my Christianity, and may, in some cases, preclude it.
I dunno. To be honest, I just try to live my whole life with integrity, and to not use the cross for financial gain. And I resent people who appear to see the way of Christ as a path to riches.
Which doesn't mean that I don't solicit work from other Christians. But when I do, I don't play the faith card, and I don't expect any special preference.
Brad,
BTW, I'm not sure I understand your ex-girlfriend example. Could you help me out here?
John, your comments are right on. It is great to know that I am not alone in my thinking about using the faith to further business contacts. BTW - what is your business? It sounds like you have a great environment to work in.
My wife and I adopted two kids from Kazakhstan a few years ago and sometimes we were questioned about not using a christian agency. We felt that kids coming from a christian agency were most likely going to go to a christian home so why not try to adopt a kid through a non-christian agency and hopefully add additional lives to the kingdom providing we do our jobs as parents. There were many other reasons besides that to use our agency, but that is another story.
I feel the same way about the workplace. If we can be a witness to the non-believer just by providing good service, fair price and using the golden rule it will do more good for the kingdom then trying to do business with other christians and having to deal with the various issues that go with that.
BTW - thanks for letting me comment on your blog.
Duane Yoder
Duane--
We do graphic design, marketing and communications consulting. http://www.elementville.com
We have one son from Vietnam, one from Korea, and a little girl coming someday from China.
I'd love to meet you someday.
Duane,
You're always welcome to comment on any post. It seems you and John have a lot in common....
Perhaps you should start a Christian Businessmen with Adopted Kids from Asia Support Group.
Brad--
Paul's "With such a man do not even eat" admonition was specifically referring to Christians. That's why he added "Now, if I was talking about non-believers, you'd have to leave the world. I'm talking about those who call themselves brothers."
So, it was Paul's distinction, not mine. I'm simply trying to live it out at work.
1 Corinthians 5:11, in case you were wondering.
Brad--
So much to say here, so little time this morning. But I wanted to respond just a little. Maybe over a Guinness and a cuban, we could really tease this one out.
1. Church Discipline: You rightly point out that 1 Cor 5:11 a part of a church discipline process, and that the ultimate goal of church discipline is to bring the offending brother back into intimate relationship with individuals and the body.
But given the state of denominational fragmentation and lack of church discipline within denominations and local bodies, I'm not sure how I would pursue such a strategy with the average 'Christian businessman' who happens my way.
In most cases, I have no way of knowing whether someone has been confronted by one brother, two brothers, the church and been turned over to Satan. I suppose I could call each person's pastor before signing a contract. But I can't imagine that many pastors would tell me -- confidentiality, and all.
From a business perspective, if I confront a potential client with his apparent greed or dishonesty, it has the same net effect as refusing to work with him in the first place. In either case, I'm not getting the job.
I have to make case-by-case judgment calls. I also have to draw on my personal experience to pre-judge whether or not I think I'm likely to get screwed. My experience has shown me that people with fishes on their cards (literally and metaphorically) are using their faith to cover up other deficiencies that are likely to come back and bite me in the end.
Which brings me to a second, probably more important issue:
2) Fellowhip: You state:
"To me, this is the whole point, though, man. Why would you rather spend your time with non-believers than with believers? You've obviously got a heart for discipleship. Evangelism is just pre-discipleship discipleship. I know you to be bold in your presentation of the Christian life, just like you present your business; but in communicating on this blog at least, your making a preference for non-believers over believers which (forgive me if I'm sounding more harsh than I mean) doesn't seem to be coming from a call to discipleship through business, but seems to be coming from a "giving up" on those who use the name Christian in business. My question is, What is driving this preference? It seems like more than just "bad business"."
Didn't Jesus get grilled over this by the Pharisees?
"Why would you want to spend all of your time eating, drinking, talking and walking with these scum?" The implication? If you were really a good Jew, you'd spend time with other good Jews. You should be investing in the community of the righteous, not dissipating yourself with these immoral people.
I'd argue that Jesus gave (in some cases) preference to non-believers. By living out my faith among unbelievers, I get to make my work evangelism, not just discipleship. Much more can be said here, but I'm outta time.
And dude, it's not like I don't do discipleship at work, and it's not like I don't advocate Christians holding other Christians to high standards. I have Christian friends at my office EVERY day, and they interact with my non-Christian clients and vendors on a pretty regular basis.
I just don't buy into the idea that I'm supposed to have any built-in preference for doing 'Christian design' for 'Christian clients.' And that's for a lot of reasons.
What would happen if we all took this to an extreme? What if all of the honest Christian businessmen gave preference to Christian clients, vendors, organizations? How would our salt get into the waters of the world at large?
And what would the effect be on the Christian community? Probably what I've argued the effect has already been: lower standards for ethics and professionalism, because everyone knows that you really should buy insurance from the Christian insurance salesman, even if he is more expensive and sells a shittier product.
I dunno. It's early Sunday morning, and I have to get ready for church. I know I haven't thought this out well enough to adequately address your earlier comments, so I just kinda barfed this out. I must admit, I have a rather visceral reaction against the notion that I'm supposed to return to the Christian bubble that made my jaded and inneffective in my earlier life.
Help me see your side.
All things being equal, and offensive content aside, do you believe that you should have a preference for Christian television programming over secular programming? Or Christian music over secular? How bout Christian restaurants. Or clothing? Why? Why not?
yes.
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