roger, kelly, you guys rock! good challenging stuff, dudes! Let me first say that (a) I'm not dissing Vineyard Columbus or Vineyards in general--I'm just processing these thoughts about accountability and the roles of the individual and the corporate body in church, and (2) I'm not sold on the whole idea of house churces/simple churches either, but they seem to answer issues that I sense in my own voyage with God and this crazy Bride o' Christ. Okay, onward: Rabbit Trail #3: men vs. women and the acceptance of gospel. Here's my take: men seem to have some strange independence issue to overcome. Jesus said he came for the "sick" (i.e., the weak, disenfranchised, hurt, lost, questioning, poor, those without hope) and men often seem to want to preserve a sense of autonomy through peer and elder approval, macho-ness, materialism, respect, authority. Having another master, other than oneself, means losing something. Men hate to have others see them as weak (this is a very general statement, BTW). Women seem to have less of a problem with having other people see them as strong and in control. There is less pressure societally for women to submit to God. On the other hand, women who do submit to God and join a church seem less able to be leaders co-equal w/ men--not because of themselves but because men can be afraid of "strong women leaders." Rabbit Trail #2: Small church/Postmodernism and church In the modern version of church, truth is propositional (an argument or set of beliefs) and someone is orthodox or unorthodox based on their expression and intensity of those beliefs. In my opinion, one of the trends of postmodernism is a move toward truth as experiencial rather than propositional. In other words, your experience is as valid as my propositional argument. This can be a really scary place--because everyone's experience is just as valid as everyone else's--but it can also be a really exciting and more Christ-like place. In a God-focused postmodern church, authenticity of experience and behavior become far more important. It might help me to write out like a little chart or something comparing a modern church with a postmodern church. This is totally me and my own thoughts, so don't think there's any authority here--so please disagree with it if you see weaknesses. Modern Church Values --- Postmodern Church Values Quantity (number of people attending) --- Quality (how are people growing with God) Performance (is it engaging? does it sound good?) --- Authenticity (are people being real with their faults as well as their successes? is there heartfelt anything going on even if it sucks?) Teaching (there should be an excellent preacher laying out propositional truths to the congregation) --- Narrative (let's see the truths of the gospel in action in individual lives) Worship (good singers, good band, excellent music) --- Worthship (does it matter how we approach God as long as we're approaching him?) Intimacy with others (important, which is why we have small groups) --- Intimacy with others (essential, which is why we do stuff outside of any structured group) Don't miss: Main Meeting (Sunday, Saturday) --- Don't miss: "Family" (Small groups at any time/space) Facilities (we can do tons of stuff with our buildings, and they need to be supported by tithes) --- People (we don't care about facilities, and therefore can't do as many things, but we use our money other ways) Full-time Staff (professionals specializing in serving the congregation) --- No full-time staff (everyone serves everyone else) Seeker sensitive (anyone can come in and observe anonymously) --- Communitarian (if you come, you'll be a part of the group immediately and can't hide) Most dependent upon: excellent staff -- Most dependent upon: interdependency (everyone has to play or we fail) Glaring weakness: brings you to Jesus, leaves you on your own -- Glaring weakness: great company but may get insular (us versus them) mentality these are just a few ideas.